How to Get Better Sleep Tonight

In an informal poll in The Grown-Ass Woman's Guide community, 63% of those who responded said they would categorize their sleep as poor. Why are so many women in midlife and beyond struggling with getting rest? In today’s episode, we are going to tackle some of the most common sleep problems in women over 40, the causes, and most importantly solutions. And, if you find your sleep is adequate but could be better, we also discuss sleep wellness — getting an even better, more restful, sleep. Who doesn’t want that?

Guest: Morgan Adams is a holistic sleep coach for women who struggle with getting a good night's sleep consistently. Her goal is to help women feel better and live better, and the key to both begins with a good night's sleep. Morgan is also a former insomniac who spent almost a decade using prescription sleeping pills despite knowing that her overall sleep quality suffered. She’s also a two-time breast cancer survivor who advocates for a lifestyle of disease prevention and integrating holistic strategies for cancer treatment.

COCONU: Get 15% off with promo code: GROWNASS at grownasswoman.guide/coconu 

Transcript

Episode Title: How to Get Better Sleep Tonight

Guest: Morgan Adams

Episode Link: https://grownasswoman.guide/episode189/

Jackie: In an informal poll in the grown-ass woman's guide community, 63% of those who responded said they would categorize their sleep as “poor.” Why are so many women in midlife and beyond struggling with getting rest? In today's episode, we are going to tackle some of the most common sleep problems in women over 40, the causes of those problems, and most importantly, the solutions. And if you're one of the 37% whose sleep is adequate, but could definitely be improved, we also discuss sleep wellness, getting an even better, more restful sleep. And who doesn't want that? This is the Grown-Ass Woman's Guide. I'm your host, Jackie MacDougall. Morgan Adams is a holistic sleep coach for women who struggle with getting a good night's sleep consistently. Her goal is to help women feel better, and live better. She's also a former insomniac who spent almost a decade using prescription sleeping pills, despite knowing that her overall sleep quality suffered. So I want to start today with the basics. What are some of the ways we can set ourselves up for a good night's sleep? Morgan says it begins with what you do in the morning.  

Morgan: Look into the tools that are behavioral based, free and accessible. Morning sunlight is a good one. So having about 15 minutes of morning sunlight without sunglasses, that's really important. So it's interesting because I take my morning walk, probably an hour after I get up. When the sun's up, so a lot of times people will have sunglasses on and what that does is it actually kind of blocks all of the things that we want happening. When the sunlight hits our retina, without sunglasses, it sends a signal to our suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is our circadian pacemaker and from there, there's this beautiful cascade of hormones and neurotransmitters. So the melatonin from the previous night is shut off, your serotonin gets boosted for better mood Cortisol boosting for more energy, and then it prepares your melatonin production for the following night. So having your sunglasses on deprives you of all those beautiful things that happen, to help your circadian rhythm. So that's one thing. Second thing is having a consistent wake up time. That is really a big driver in keeping your circadian rhythm very healthy. And when you have a very anchored wake up time, you're naturally going to become sleepy around the same time each night so that your bedtime becomes like a bedtime window. So if you're waking up at six, you might become sleepy between like 10 and 11, so you don't have to give yourself that specific bedtime, and then exercise, I can't say it enough. Exercise has been proven again and again to help people get deeper sleep, increase their sleep quality, efficiency, helps them fall asleep faster, so exercise, 30 minutes a day, five days a week, it's a free tool. You can walk, you can lift weights, do whatever, but it really does work to help your sleep.  

Jackie: Yeah. It's funny cause I think a lot of people are like, no, no, no, I don't, I don't want to do the work. I just, that's why, that's why medication is so popular for people.  

Jackie: Self-medicating for sleep is common for women in our age and stage of life. From Ambien to cannabis, melatonin to other supplements. How do we know what's right for us? It's first, most important to understand why we aren't sleeping before we start throwing medication at it.  

Jackie: I went into the Grown-Ass Woman's Guide community and I asked about their sleep and 63% who answered before we started recording this would call the quality of their sleep poor. 63%. That's a big number. You're probably not surprised by this, but can we start with “Why?” 

Morgan: Yeah. Your poll results line up really, really well with the national poll midlife women, about half of us are having trouble sleeping. There's a few reasons why. So if you think about the most obvious reason, it's like hormones. We're in a phase of life where our hormones are starting to decline, but as they're declining, they're in major flux. It's hard to predict where they're going to be. 

Jackie: Mhm. 

Morgan: Second reason is because women are more prone to things like anxiety and depression, which leave us more vulnerable to sleep issues. And then really the third main reason is more of a sociological, cultural phenomenon where, I call us the sandwich generation because a 45-50 year old woman could potentially be still raising kids at home. She could have older parents who need her help getting to and from, and that woman could also be at the top of her career game. So she has a lot of competing demands, which create a lot of anxiety and stress, which can play out in her sleep. So those are sort of the main reasons, but there are a multitude of various factors that are disrupting our sleep in this phase of life. So yes, your poll was pretty spot on with what I'm seeing. And of course I'm biased because all the people who come to see me are obviously having trouble sleeping. 

Jackie: Right. And I definitely want to get into that because, when you think about coaches, we have business coaches and there are life coaches out there. Never would occur to me to get a sleep coach. Why would somebody want to hire a sleep coach?

Morgan: Yeah. So it's kind of a new type of coaching emerging. I think it's going to really explode soon, but a lot of people are. struggling with their sleep. And the way I kind of describe a sleep coach, this is like in the most basic way possible, we're kind of like a personal trainer for your sleep. 

Jackie: Mm. 

Morgan: But we go much deeper and a lot of us go way deeper than just being more of a personal trainer. So we are dealing with helping people with circadian rhythm alignment, helping with fixing a lot of the attitudes and beliefs and relationships are that are not good about our own sleep. I think a lot of what has to happen first is changing our mindset around sleep, and that's that's a really big topic to get into. And then really behavioral change is at the crux of sleep coaching, because what we're doing is we're really trying to modify some maladaptive behaviors that we fall into a rut with and those can really impact our sleep. So all sleep coaches are different, but the way that I personally work is I'm a holistic sleep coach. So I work in a variety of ways using a variety of modalities, looking at the person as a whole. And so my goal is actually to help people get better sleep without taking medications. That's a primary focus of what I do, because I had my own really crazy experience with sleep medications that we could dive into later. But I do personally understand the conundrum of sleep medications and I truly believe in my core that we are able to sleep without assistance from those medications. My mission is to help women do just that. 

Jackie: Awesome. And I want to talk about the medications and I want to talk about your story next, but you said something that really just sparked my curiosity and that is our attitudes and our beliefs about sleep. Can you give me some examples of how that's hurting us? 

Morgan: Yeah. So one really good example is, sometimes, and this starts with our parents often. So if we are not sleeping that great as children, we may be labeled a bad sleeper by our parents. And so we grow up with that label of I'm a bad sleeper, so it might not start in childhood, but we could go through a lot of insomnia and just call ourselves a terrible sleeper. Thoughts become things, right? So if you're constantly telling yourself how bad you are at something, you're probably going to continue being not great at it. Right? So, that's just one example, but there's so many things that we tell ourselves that, for example, you know, I must get eight hours of sleep. 

Jackie: Mm. 

Morgan: Do we really, how do we know that? That's just something that has been perpetuated that may or may not be true for each person individually. So when we're in that spiral of insomnia, sometimes we fall prey to believing things that are not necessarily going to be true. So another example is, I slept terrible last night. I'm going into work. I'm going to get fired because of my performance.  

Jackie: Mm. 

Morgan: That's something we call catastrophizing. You're probably not going to get fired. You may not perform as well. you might perform even better. Who knows? But it's just this whole kind of predicting the future that hasn't happened yet. So we fall prey to that. So there are lots of little mind things that happen when we're dealing with that sleep struggle. 

Jackie: Yeah. Well, I think because, especially after 40, they may have been talking about it before I hit 40, but I didn't listen because who cared? After 40. It was like, oh, sleep, like sleep's going to lead you to have a car accident and get fired and be a terrible mother. That's what sells, right, is that catastrophizing? And so. I think we all started listening to that. Like, oh, I better prioritize sleep. And the more we try to prioritize sleep and make it like this really important thing, the worse our insomnia gets. Right? 

Morgan: Yes. you hit on such a really important point, because I'm a sleep coach and very interested in sleep, I am targeted at a lot of ads and people send me a lot of articles about sleep. And so I'm inundated with all of this content. And I'm telling you, Jackie, there are so many fear mongering headlines out there. That we really need to be careful about. So you'll see things like, this will cause you to have dementia or this is going to make you live 10 years less. And so what we really need to do is we need to really stop and kind of consider the source, consider the study that they're talking about. A lot of times I've actually seen a clickbait headline and then dug deeper into looking at the particular study. And I find some flaws with some of the studies. So you have to kind of remember that, the media is trying to kind of sell you the fear tactic to get you to read what's going on. So just be leery of everything you read, just consider the source is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. 

Jackie: Absolutely. And that, across the board for all, but especially health, we’re getting magazine headlines or this expert. And, you know, if we don't dive in to see who the source is, we can get really caught up in it.  

Morgan: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, my heart really goes out to my clients who are mainly people struggling with insomnia because they see these headlines and then they email me and they're like, Oh my gosh, is my health going to deteriorate? And I have to kind of talk them off the ledge and say, look, you're doing a ton of other really, really great things for your health. Sleep is just one aspect of our total health. Let's control what we can control and not get too swept up. 

Jackie: Right. And so when you say that we don't all necessarily need eight hours, how do we know how much sleep we need? 

Morgan: The National Sleep Foundation has sort of a general recommendation of seven to nine hours for adults, 18 to 64. Eight is right in the middle between seven and nine. And a lot of people focus on that. But when you really look at the sleep foundations, actual recommendations, the fine print, what you'll see is that they say anywhere from six to 10 hours may be appropriate for people. So that's quite a broad range. What I encourage people to do is to really kind of find their own sleep sweet spot. And really the most simple way to do that is to go to sleep, without an alarm, and kind of test for yourself, like how much sleep do I need to feel good? Right. And I think if people really tap into their internal cues, they will be able to kind of understand what their general sleep needs are and it could be six hours and 45 minutes for some people. Some people may feel great. Probably 99 percent of people are gonna feel best with seven or more hours. But we do have people out there who are called short sleepers. They do okay with six, but they're in the minority by far. 

Jackie: I'm not that person. 

Morgan: Me neither. 

Jackie: Although it is interesting. So like last night I went to sleep after midnight and I still, without an alarm, get up around 7-7:30. That's just like my natural rhythm. I normally get up at 6:30 cause my husband gets up and the kids are going to school and all that, but 7:30 is like a good place no matter what time I go to bed at nine or if I go to bed at midnight, it's the same as far as when I wake up. So it's kind of cool. One of the things I like about what you're doing is it's not just, I mean, it is research, you're very knowledgeable. I've followed you on social media for a long time. It's all backed in science and all that good stuff. And you actually experienced it yourself. So you know what it feels like. So can you take us back for a minute to what was going on in your life? What was happening? What were you trying? If you can just channel that former version of you. 

Morgan: I'll take myself back. I was probably in my mid thirties when this all happened. So it was quite a few years ago. So I don't have every single thing in detail, but what ended up happening was it was a relationship problem that kicked off this bout of insomnia. And I had what we call sleep onset insomnia, which is basically trouble falling asleep. And I would lie in bed for up to two hours most nights ,waiting for sleep to happen. And after a couple months of this, I thought, okay, something's got to give. And so I went to my family care doctor and I was given Ambien and I thought, well, you know, the doctor knows what's best. And I was a pharmaceutical sales rep at the time, so I was very open to all sorts of different medications. And, there's a pill for every ill type of mentality. I really fully bought into that. And so I just took the Ambien and it did help me get to sleep a little bit sooner. However, I had a lot of residual side effects the next day. I would wake up feeling very groggy. I wouldn't actually feel fully alert until probably close to lunchtime. And that was a bother. I was very slow mentally, waking up and I had the kind of job at the time that required me to write, copy very quickly. Like it was a PR position where I had to put out a press release. And I remember times where I just wasn't quick enough. They weren’t happy with me. And it was just because I was so groggy and there was so much residual brain fog from the ambient the night before, I also had episodes of binge eating after I'd taken the pill. Now knowing what I know now, and having done the research, what I have found out is that 80 percent of people who take these types of sleeping pills have residual side effects the next day, like grogginess, trouble waking up. So it's quite common. And another thing I found out, which is really interesting, is that in 2013, the FDA asked the company that makes Ambien to change the Ambien dosage for women because women were essentially being overdosed. So I was basically being overdosed this whole time I was on Ambien. It wasn't a great experience at all. I think I would have probably felt clearer being slightly sleep deprived for a while than having this just, it felt like a hangover every day. And I wasn't necessarily drinking, so it was not a good way to feel. 

Jackie: And I've seen some stories on Ambien, I haven't been on Ambien, but like, the eating for sure, um, ordering, shopping online, all of these behaviors that happen and that people don't even remember, I mean, that's dangerous in itself. 

Morgan: Yeah. And they issued a black box warning on these types of drugs in 2019 for the very reason that people were getting behind the wheel. People were dying. People weren't just shopping or eating. It was a lot more serious than that. So people were injuring themselves or others dying. And so that's why they have the black box warning. 

Jackie: Wow. Wow. So yes, I mean, definitely talk to your doctor, have somebody with you, like all the things this is. And by the way, if you're listening, we are not giving medical advice today, so don't come at me. we're sharing some positive, habits to get into, and behavioral change.

Morgan: And I mean, I will say there is a place for sleeping pills for sure. And really the best use for sleeping pills is during a situation where there's a short term crisis, a death, a divorce, something really tragic. In that case, it's completely understandable to take sleeping pills. The problem with what's going on a lot today with primary care doctors is that they are giving the patient the pills for this reason, but they're not giving them any exit strategy. So I see the women in my practice who are on Ambien for 15-20 years, because their doctor never prescribed an exit strategy so they became dependent. So it's something that there is a place, but we need to be really cautious about how they're used. 

Jackie: Thank you for making that point. So let's talk about melatonin or other “natural” sleep aids. What are your thoughts there? Because that's not Ambien. 

Morgan: Yeah. So there is a whole huge market out there for sleep supplements. I mean, I get targeted by these ads all the time. And generally speaking, if you look at, most of the leading bodies in sleep research, all of the big wigs, they will tell you that there is really no significant evidence that these supplements help with insomnia, because insomnia is a lot more complex and like a supplement isn't going to quell a lot of anxiety. 

I mean, it can help, you know, relax a little bit, but we really can't rely on supplements to mitigate insomnia. However, there is a place for sleep supplements for people who maybe are having occasional issues. Maybe they want to just optimize a little bit. So I'm not saying across the board they're useless. There are some that are quite good, but I really feel like people need to be a buyer beware situation because there's a lot of junk on the market. So you want to, you just like with any supplement, you want to make sure that the manufacturer is using good practices, things are third party tested, they're not using cheap fillers with, you know, yucky ingredients. You just want, really want to make sure you're buying from a reputable source and be willing to experiment with different things because I hear all the time, people will just DM me on Instagram. I found this supplement that works awesome, and I actually sometimes will end up buying the supplement just to see it didn't do anything for me. So what works for you, Jackie, may not work for me and vice versa. So I think that sometimes, we have to be open to experimenting, but I think we, at the end of the day, have to have realistic expectations of what a supplement can do, because what really moves the needle with sleep much more than supplements is a behavioral change. I feel like once you've gotten the behavioral changes lined up and that you're doing all the things, most of the 80-20 rule, you're doing most of the things in the correct way, then it's probably a good idea to add a supplement. But you can't just live just a really kind of reckless lifestyle and then expect a supplement to save you. It just isn't going to work like that. 

Jackie: Damn. 

Morgan: I know everyone's like, “Oh, Morgan, such a bearer of bad news.” 

Jackie: Just to go back to what you're saying, it sounds great. make sure that the company is not putting junk in and dah, dah, dah, dah. But like as a lay person, how do we do that? Is there a website that we can go to? Like, how do we know if a company is good, or a supplement is good. 

Morgan: Yeah. So I probably would, so this is not an ad for this particular company, but there is a online dispensary called full script.  

Jackie: Okay.  

Morgan: And a lot of practitioners, including myself, have an account and with any product that goes on full script, it's all third party tested. Full script has vetted the brands already. Whenever I'm choosing a supplement for myself, or I'm helping a client pick out a supplement, I go there first because I trust that they've done their due diligence, and I don't have to do a lot of my own research. I would say maybe look into that or find a practitioner. So many of the practitioners have these accounts. 

Jackie: Absolutely. The cardiologist I went to just for a checkup, that's where all of her supplements are through full script. So yeah, some vitamins and all that good, all that good stuff. so when we're talking about supplements, I always hear like, Oh, just take magnesium. You just need more magnesium. What do you say to that? 

Morgan: Well, you know, I love magnesium. I think magnesium is something that most people could benefit from taking, sleep issues or not, because magnesium is involved in about 300 different enzymatic processes in our body. So I kind of look at magnesium as more of an overall wellness supplement than a sleep supplement because there's like eight different kinds. But for the people who are struggling with sleep, I would say probably go with magnesium glycinate because that seems to have a little bit more use for sleep itself, but again, it's not going to solve insomnia, but if you have sort of an anxious temperament, it MAY help, with that relaxation part. 

Jackie: Okay. What about cannabis? Because cannabis, you know, is everywhere. We're talking about CBD. We're talking about THC. What are your thoughts on that?

Morgan: Yeah, cannabis is tricky because there's some tolerance issues. So what we find often is that people will start using cannabis, it helps their sleep for a little while, but they need to use more and more and more. And sometimes it can actually kind of backfire where your sleep actually gets worse. So it's a little interesting because I think THC and smaller amounts might be more activating, and in larger amounts it might be more sedating. So it's like the dosing can be pretty confusing. Generally speaking, most sleep doctors and sleep experts are saying probably stay away from cannabis as a sleep aid because there's not a whole lot of data showing that it's beneficial long term. 

 Jackie: So let's talk about CBTI. What is it and why does it matter? 

Morgan: So, a lot of actual Primary care physicians don't really know what CBTI is because they end up recommending prescription sleep aids. So the American Academy of Physicians has recommended CBTI as first line treatment for insomnia over sleep medications. So it's more efficacious than a sleeping pill. It's called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, and it's been around since the 1980s. It's probably the thing for insomnia that has the most evidence based research and it's really like primarily dealing with behavioral change and secondarily cognitive change. It's sort of like there's a menu selection with CBTI and you can do specific components of it, or you can kind of do the whole menu. So the main menu, I would say, is behavioral strategies. And the main, behavioral strategies or something called stimulus control. And that is a pretty simple principle, not always easy to do, but the concept is very simple. So if you are lying in bed and you can't sleep, the whole idea is to get up out of your bed and do something relaxing and quiet and dim light in another room until you become sleepy again, and then get into bed. So you're essentially retraining your brain. What happens with a lot of people who have insomnia is they start to have an association with their bed and anxiety. They've paired anxiety and stress with their bed. What we're working to do with stimulus control is to unpair that so that we have a really healthy pairing with sleep and our bed. Our bed is a place to sleep, not a place to worry, not a place to eat, not a place to scroll, not a place to do our work. So that's one of the essential parts of CBTI on the behavioral side. So then the other part with the behavioral side is, something called sleep restriction. And it sounds like a terrible, awful name. I like to call it either sleep compression or sleep quality training. And so what that is is imagine somebody who has insomnia, they are in bed trying to sleep, but they're in bed for 10 hours and they're only producing seven hours of sleep. Right? So what we're trying to do is we're trying to match the time in bed that they're actually asleep. So we may prescribe a sleep window that is like 7 hours, which is the amount of sleep they're able to produce. So essentially, we're trying to boost the quality by compressing it into a smaller chunk, right? So that's like the other part of the behavioral part of CBTI. On the cognitive piece, we kind of touched on this earlier. It's a lot of reframing, unhelpful attitudes and beliefs about sleep. So it's that whole, if I don't get enough sleep tonight, I'm going to just be miserable tomorrow. It's just, my day is just going to be ruined. In essence, how do we know that? also think about all the times we've had bad sleep. Think about a time when you didn't get enough sleep, for example, because you had to wake up early for a flight. You weren't upset the next day you were enjoying yourself, right? Your day wasn't ruined. So we have all these preconceived notions of what our day could be like with not a lot of sleep when, in fact, we could have a really awesome day. Like we just don't know. So it's really kind of finessing those thoughts and kind of restructuring them. and then another part of CBTI does involve more of like mindfulness and relaxation so there's different ways to do mindfulness and relaxation practices, also another small subset of CBT is sleep hygiene, which, you know, a lot of people know already, but sleep hygiene in and of itself is not CBT. Sometimes people will say to me, Oh, I've done CBTI, and I'm like, well, tell me more. Tell me what you did. And they'll list these long lists of things that are sleep hygiene related, but they weren't actually doing CBTI. So, sleep hygiene is just a very small portion of the whole menu selection of CBTI. 

Jackie: Right. And is sleep hygiene, like go to bed at the same time and do your routine and all that stuff. 

Morgan: Yeah. Sleep hygiene is something like that. And it's like, cut off caffeine after a certain hour, cut off alcohol, have a late dinner, all those things, which are great. Those are like foundational things that we should be doing for our sleep health. Sleep hygiene really is very much like flossing your teeth, but it's kind of like dental hygiene. But once you have a cavity, AKA insomnia, brushing and flossing, isn't going to fix the cavity. That's when you call on the CBTI. 

Jackie: Yeah. That makes sense. So those practices are really important, but they're not the end all be all. So if you're doing them and you still can't sleep, it's not necessarily your fault. 

Morgan: Yes, exactly. 

Jackie: We like that. We like when it's not our fault. 

Morgan: Yes. 

Jackie: So there are a few things that I've picked up on your social media that feel a little bit like myths, I want to bust some perceptions here. So you did a post about if you're a morning person versus a night owl, if you go on to basically any books or podcasts or social media, people will tell you how you should set up your morning to be successful and productive. You get up at four and you meditate and you journal and you exercise and you stretch then you have breakfast, then you have your coffee later. And I'm like, no, no. And I feel like there's a sense of shame around those who are night owls, that's where they find their most productive times or their creative times. So can you bust that myth for me? Like, is it okay to be a night owl?

Morgan: Yeah. You hit a really good one. So we all have chronotypes that are unique to us and we're basically born into a chronotype. So the main two chronotypes are night owls and early birds. And, it's kind of like equally the same amount, there's kind of like a split. But the way our society works, it works in favor of early birds because think of just corporate America, right? Meetings start at eight. That means you have to get up probably at six, which is sort of an early bird rise time. So a lot of things are just set up in society for the early bird to thrive and flourish. And night owls, on the other hand, they tend to want to go to bed later, and as a consequence, they may want to sleep in a little bit later. So teenagers are naturally night owls, right? And I think sometimes, I think sometimes, parents will get on their kids' cases, their teenagers' cases about stop being lazy. And it's actually, they should just be allowed to sleep, within limits. But, there is this just strange prejudice against night owls and it drives me nuts. I'm an early bird. I was born, I mean, hardcore early bird, to the tee. But I feel like it's just, with the mornings, you don't have to get up at 4:00 AM to be successful. It does not make any sense. There are plenty of people out there who are incredibly talented, wealthy, productive, CEOs, and they operate on a night owl schedule. They may go to bed at midnight and they may get up at seven or eight or whatever, and they're doing just fine. So my message is really to do your best to honor your own chronotype and to not fight it. And I feel like there is sort of a little bit of a movement to try to be more accepting of people of different chronotypes. When I'm following different companies, I'm finding that sometimes there's a little bit more openness to people in management, catering to all chronotypes and letting people flex their time. You know, it's really interesting and in the early part of the pandemic, when people were not going to the office, it really boded well for night owls. Because they were able to actually kind of live by their chronotype and sleep in a little bit. So they got better sleep probably because of that. So yeah, I'm hoping that this trend will continue where companies might be a little bit more flexible and how they let employees manage their own workload. Fingers crossed.

Jackie: Yeah. It's so interesting though, because I think about this and people are like, you should get more sleep and it's getting more sleep always. At least what I see means getting to bed earlier and it's never, you should get more sleep. You should sleep in three more hours later. 

Morgan: Right? Exactly. Yeah. I get these messages all the time to me, like just in ads and posts, it's like, get to bed earlier. Okay. Well, what if you're not wired that way? This is a really detrimental message I think to have because, especially if you are a night owl, who's dealing with insomnia, that's like a double whammy because I've actually heard influencers, Jackie, this drives me crazy people on podcasts, very influential people, saying, get to bed by 10, you know, or I have all of my athletes that I train in bed by 10. Okay. Well, what if you're the kind of person who is a night owl, and you're also having some insomnia tendencies. If you're told to go to bed at 10, you might lie in bed for two hours being stressed and the insomnia just perpetuates because you're being told incorrect information. Really the bottom line, this is how I work with my clients is I'm encouraging them to listen to their cues of sleepiness as a way to tell them when it's time to go to sleep versus like a prescriptive go to bed at the same time every night. You know, we can't operate that way. It's just really hard to make yourself fall asleep at a certain time every night. 

Jackie: Yeah. And I love that because I feel like we send the message, especially, you know, we talk about women here. We're doing everything wrong. You're going to bed at the wrong time. You're getting up at the wrong time. There's no wonder that we can't sleep. 

Morgan: Right? 

Jackie: We're told that everything we do is wrong. You know, I love that you're like, pay attention. I will say and I'll speak for myself in the past, I could feel myself. It was like, oh, now's a good time to go to sleep, but yeah, I'll watch one more episode or yell. I'll keep scrolling or I'll do this thing. So I think that's a very important message. I don't want to get lost. Pay attention because your body's trying to tell you it's tired. 

Morgan: Yes. Yes. You have hit on something really interesting. The name for this kind of behavior is actually, it's called revenge bedtime procrastination. Have you heard of this term before? So essentially it's kind of a little bit more exaggerated than what you just shared, but it's a lot of times women, because imagine we're so busy during the day taking care of everyone else, right? That we have not left enough time in the day to do things that are fun for us. for us. So when it ends up happening, this is very common with my clients is that they've worked a full day. they haven't had a chance to take a breather and the kids are in bed and it's like, Ooh, I can just have some wine and do Netflix and scroll and they're up past the time that they actually know that they should be kind of their bedtime window, essentially. And what ends up happening is they have to get up at a certain hour because they have to go to work and they're not getting enough sleep. So it's really, I think, a matter of mitigating that is building time into your day for things that you find enjoyable, even if it means just blocking 15 minutes on your calendar three times a day to take a walk or to do something you love doing. So then you don't feel that pressure at night to like, do it all, you know, and get it all done. 

Jackie: Right. That's so interesting. So what is it? Revenge sleep procrastination? 

Morgan: Revenge bedtime procrastination. Yeah. 

Jackie: So interesting. I think a lot of people relate to, to like the, you're on the couch, you're on the couch. You're so tired. I can't even keep my eyes open. I have to ask my husband the next day, like what happened to that movie or that episode? And then you get upstairs and you're like, woop bing! I'm awake.  

Morgan: Yep. That happens a lot. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's sometimes when we get our second wind. So we've kind of gone past that sleepiness phase and it's okay, because another wave of sleepiness will come. But, I always kind of recommend to my clients that they get their pajamas on and brush their teeth and wash their face before they kind of do their wind down. So that if they're watching TV, they can just go straight to bed. They don't have to like get on their pajamas or do anything else. They can just get right into bed. 

Jackie: Oh, that's a game changer. I think if I were ready, because the idea of having to go upstairs and brush my teeth and floss and wash my face and all that stuff is like, I'll just stay here on the couch a little bit longer, but I really want to be in that bed so that's a game changer. Thank you. And another thing that I saw you talking about was blood sugar. Sleep has a direct impact on your blood sugar. 

Morgan: Yeah. Sleep has actually a bidirectional relationship. Sleep and blood sugar have a bidirectional relationship. So if we are having a low blood sugar issue, what can end up happening is that we could have and awakening at two or three in the morning, because the low blood sugar creates a cortisol and adrenaline spike, and then we're awake and then we end up becoming like, we don't have enough sleep the next day, and so our blood sugar becomes a little dysregulated. So there's this sort of vicious cycle that keeps happening. So what I really recommend to my clients is to make sure that we're starting our day. Having a blood sugar balancing breakfast, you know, that contains at least 30 grams of protein without having what we call naked carbs. So we grew up in the era where we had instant oatmeal and cereal for breakfast. That was like our breakfast, right? Because we grew up in the seventies and eighties and that's what we ate. And as a result, we end up being really hungry and our blood sugar is sort of all over the place during the day. And when our blood sugar is imbalanced during the day, it can actually spill over into the night. So it creates this kind of ripple effect. So really just making sure that we have that blood sugar balancing breakfast, and then making sure our meals throughout the day have a decent amount of protein, fat, and a small amount of complex carbs so that we go into the nighttime with some blood sugar balance. 

Jackie: Interesting. I remember when I was pregnant with my first son and I had gestational diabetes and they had me having a snack before bed. you know, A very simple, like the right amount of carbs and protein and fat just before I went to keep my blood sugar from spiking or dropping. 

Morgan: Yep. That's very, very similar to what I just said. It really can help a lot of people. It's not going to solve across the board issues for people who are waking up for different reasons. But if blood sugar is an issue, it's a really good little hack to try. 

Jackie: Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So I have a couple of questions from the community. If you're cool with that, we're right on the same track here. So Myrna says, I'd like to know why after going a stretch of time sleeping through the night, I've suddenly started waking up at 4:00 AM. I'm not hungry, thirsty, and don't need to use the bathroom at 4:00 AM and I'm wide awake. By 7:00 AM, I'm ready to sleep again, but it's time to get up and start the day.  What would you tell Myrna?

Morgan: This is very, very classic. So this is probably due to some kind of hormonal fluctuation. So, I would say, do her very best to, not like support for him. It's like a rough time.  This is a really tricky one, Jackie.

Jackie: Listen, I don't expect that we're going to solve the world's problems today. Like, this is a great start. This is a great conversation. First of all, is Myrna alone? Is this common? 

Morgan: Yeah, it happens to me. Yeah. Well, I am, I actually started taking a supplement because I had the same problem as Myrna. 

Jackie: Really? 

Morgan: Yeah. So I started taking the supplement after hearing about it on a podcast interview. There's a company called Symphony Natural Health that makes a plant melatonin called herbitonin. And the woman who is the chief scientific officer there was sharing that she had perimenopausal wake up issues between two and four. And I was having them as well. She said that the herbitonin was helping her sleep later and not have those early morning awakenings. So I ended up trying it myself and it actually did work. So it's not a surefire thing for everybody, but I feel like with Herbitonin, it's made with rice, chlorella, and algae, so it's not a synthetic melatonin, which has like probably 13 different potential contaminants. So in that case, I would say, you know I don't like to blanket recommend supplements because we need to make sure like I said before if you're taking supplements, you really want to make sure that your behaviors are dialed in but let's just assume that Myrna's behaviors are dialed in as mine were, then maybe adding a supplement like an herbitonin on top of that could potentially help. But it's a really, really tricky one. You know, if 7:00 AM is her wake up time, that's a long time to wait in bed. You know, so she could do stimulus control at 4am. That's a possibility that whole get up and go into another room and do something that would probably be another option. There are a few options, but it's like, that's probably one of the most common sleep issues that I hear about. 

Jackie: Really? And I love that, you know, the advice is not blanket, like a blanket advice for everyone. just like sleep needs are not the same for everyone. And so I think that's great. Like these are potentially some of the solutions, try them, and see for yourself. So that's great. Okay. Tracy says, how long does it take your body to get into a new rhythm? I'm used to only getting an average of five hours of sleep. 1am to 6am, been a night owl my whole life, so rarely in bed before midnight. Lately I have been going to bed by 11pm or sooner, but then end up wide awake at 3:09 AM literally almost every night, 3:09. Sadly, once I'm awake, it's like I had a great nap and difficult to go back to sleep and under an hour.  

Morgan: Mm. Yeah. Similar answer. I mean, she may want to do a plant based melatonin, but it takes a while to get back into a new rhythm because we get into these habits where we have a certain sleep schedule, like we may not like it, right? But it takes a while to sometimes get out of it. It's not like an overnight type of thing. We can be in this kind of loop for a while and it can take a while to get back into a normal rhythm. But that's a really tough situation that she's in. 

Jackie: Yeah. And then part of me wonders why change it if 1am to 6am was working for her?

Morgan: Well, my answer to that would be like five hours isn't really enough sleep. for people. I mean, that's what I would call inadequate sleep. So we would want to find a way to either let her sleep in a little bit later, but I would hesitate on saying, have her go to bed earlier because she is a night owl. We don't want to put that pressure on her to go to bed earlier. 

Jackie: Right. So then Dana just had a comment that said, my sleep is different every night, but rarely is it actually restful. So what do you do with that inconsistency? 

Morgan: Yeah. So when people are finding that their sleep is not restful and they’ve gotten enough sleep, and they're doing all the right things that they can think of, and that feeling of not feeling rested could be a potential sign that there's some sleep apnea going on. So if you're feeling, A lot of sleepiness the next day, even though you've gotten like the seven hours that you normally get, I would probably talk to your doctor because what ends up happening when women are in midlife is that with our hormones, changing and getting less estrogen and progesterone, those female hormones actually protect the airway. So what we find is that when midlife happens for women, our rates of sleep apnea are basically matched to those of men, our same age. what ends up happening is that women go undiagnosed with sleep apnea. So about 90 percent of women go undiagnosed with sleep apnea, which is huge. And I've had clients who've come to me. And as we've worked together, we've figured out that they actually have insomnia and sleep apnea. So the sleep apnea has to get dealt with immediately because if you're working with somebody who has insomnia, and their sleep apnea isn't getting any better or is not being dealt with, what you're doing with them is not going to be as effective. So the sleep apnea needs to be dealt with first. So I would say talk to your doctor if you can't figure out why you're sleepy the next day and you just don't feel rested. That could be a sign. Not for everyone, but it's a good way to get that screening done and just kind of know for sure.  

Jackie: At least rule it out. That's great. Thank you. You know, it saved me and my sleep. So my husband is a big snorer and, at the pharmacy, like Walgreens, he got a mouth guard that I don't know how it works. Like it just aligns things in a better way that he doesn't snore as much. In fact, I know when it fell out of his mouth because he'll be snoring, but not only am I sleeping better, but he's sleeping better. 

Morgan: Interesting. 

Jackie: Yeah, it was literally a snore mouth guard, like over the counter. I did not have high hopes for it, but it probably improved both of our sleep by 75%. 

Morgan: Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. I haven't really heard of those in a drugstore before. 

Jackie: Yeah. I'll have to find the packaging or something and link to it. And they're not a sponsor, but they should be. 

Morgan: They should be. 

Jackie: Because they saved my marriage. I was really considering that like separate bedroom thing, which I got to do an episode on those people who have separate bedrooms because it's kind of brilliant, you know? 

Morgan: Yeah, it is brilliant. Yeah. 

Jackie: So I know that you have a free sleep reset mini course. I'm going to link to that in the show notes. Can you tell my audience what they might expect from something like that? Like I would never have thought I would take a course to learn how to sleep. 

Morgan: So this is actually a little mini course that I put together that's really specifically about morning and evening routines. It's really for people who don't have anything in place at all and kind of want a place to start with a morning and evening routine. it's quite general, so it may need to be tweaked according to your own preferences, but it's really for people who kind of like, where do I start? Kind of like 101, how do I give myself some structure in the morning? What are some things I should be doing in the morning and what are some kind of foundational things I should be doing in the evening, really to also kind of help, align the circadian rhythm, strengthen the circadian rhythm? So I would definitely recommend someone to check that out as a first kind of first step. 

Jackie: Awesome. And then if they need a little bit more support, you have a free introductory call. 

Morgan: Yeah, I have something called a sleep clarity call. So if you are. still struggling, I can get on the phone with you, you can share what's going on and I can help you get to the root cause, and give you a couple of pointers to maybe fix things. Yeah. 

Jackie: To connect with Morgan, check out her mini course, or schedule a free consult, visit grownasswoman.guide/episode189.  

Jackie: What is the one thing you want someone to take away from this episode? 

Morgan: The one thing I would have you take away is that the easiest way, the most effective way to get your sleep back on track are behavioral interventions. It's not necessarily a biohack or some kind of fancy tool. All the things that we need really to get better sleep are either free or they're very accessible, almost free. You don't need to spend a ton of money on different gadgets and supplements. If you can nail down some of the basic behavioral principles, then you should be in a much better position to get better sleep. 

Jackie: Awesome. Thank you. And we talked about many of those principles here today. Morgan, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

Morgan: You're so welcome. It's been a pleasure. 

Jackie: Thank you so much for listening. For more information, links to related episodes, and a transcript of this episode, visit grownasswoman.guide/189. And let's connect on social media. I’m at grownasswoman.guide. Until next time, you are a grown-ass woman. Act accordingly. The Grown-Ass Woman's Guide is produced by Grown-Ass Creative, a media and marketing agency powered by grown-ass women over 40.