When Is It Time to Walk Away?

We hear a lot about grief as it relates to death and dying. But today’s guest is an expert on grieving those who still walk among us. Melody Murray, is the author of “Mourning the Living:  When The Loved One You’ve Lost is Still Here” and “My Bounce Back Plan” (available November 2023). In this episode, she helps guide us through difficult relationships, and shares her expertise on when to know it’s time to create stronger boundaries, and when it’s time to move on.

About: Melody Murray is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Child Mental Health Specialist and author of two books. Melody has been featured in the NY Times, the Business Insider, "The Doctors", E! Networks and "Peace of Mind with Taraji" on Facebook Watch. She’s a former reality tv producer and director who, around the time she turned 40, made the giant leap into becoming a therapist. Connect with Melody at MelodyLMFT.com or on Instagram @MelodyLMFT.

Related episodes with Melody: 

How to Put the Joy Back in the Holidays

You Are Not Enough (and other lies we tell ourselves)

COCONU: Get 15% off with promo code: GROWNASS at grownasswoman.guide/coconu 

Transcript

Episode Title: When is it Time to Walk Away?

Guest: Melody Murray

Episode Link: https://grownasswoman.guide/episode188/

Jackie: We hear a lot about grief as it relates to death and dying, but today's guest is an expert on grieving those who still walk among us: Melody Murray, author of Mourning the Living: When the Loved One You've Lost is Still Here. And in this episode, Melody helps guide us through difficult relationships, and shares her expertise on when to know it's time to create stronger boundaries, and when it's time to move on. This is the Grown-Ass Woman's Guide. I'm your host, Jackie MacDougall. 

[00:00:30] Jackie: Melody Murray is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and child mental health specialist. She just released her first book, and her second book is coming out in just a few weeks. Listen to the end to hear about that one. It is life-changing stuff. Melody has been featured in The New York Times, Business Insider, The Doctors, Networks and Peace of Mind with Taraji on Facebook Watch. She is a former reality TV producer and director who, around the time she turned 40, made the giant leap into becoming a therapist. If you have not heard Melody before, today is your lucky day. Let's dive in. 

[00:01:07] Jackie: Mourning the Living is a powerful reminder that sometimes the most difficult goodbyes are not to those who have left our lives, but to those who still remain. Holy shit, Melody. Like in the gut, in the feels, we all know those people who are, they're still alive, they're still walking this earth, but they should not be walking our earth.

[00:01:30] Melody: They're still alive, but they're dead to us, and we all have someone in our family, in our friend circle, that is that way. Every single one of us. Estrangement is rising, and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It's just not.

[00:01:45] Jackie: But I want to start with this, because I think there's a lot of guilt and shame when we cut somebody out of our lives, or at least remove them from a large distance. Can we tackle that first? There's someone in your life, they're not bringing anything positive, how do we not feel like a terrible human being for wanting to end this relationship?

[00:02:13] Melody: I think you hit the nail on the head right out of the gate, which is, I'm in a relationship with someone, and I feel like I'm constantly giving and I'm getting nothing in return. I feel like I'm the doormat, I'm being stepped on, this isn't a reciprocal relationship. Owning that for what it is and knowing it takes two to tango. You can't carry a relationship with someone else all on your own shoulders. And you have to be really honest with yourself. And I think that's the key. It's honesty. So that's the first part. Acknowledging what's going on is the first part. The second part is how do you feel now knowing that this is a one sided relationship? And I think that whenever you own that part of it, that helps you go into step three, which is crude, but it's something I tell all my clients. Whenever you're trying to set a boundary and you're really afraid to, because you're afraid of how it's going to come off, you're afraid of what the other person is going to think about you, say, I am not an asshole. And I really truly feel that if you're a growth minded person, if healing is important to you, if you're in therapy, you're not an asshole. Like we can all have asshole moments, but if you're really concerned about whether or not you're hurting someone else, that is a good sign about your character.

[00:03:32] Melody: It just is. And I'm not saying that it's an easy thing to do. These are hard conversations to have with ourselves and with other people, but they're necessary conversations, because time is short, and you want to be spending your energy with people that appreciate you and value you. You don't want to feel used and abused when you interact with someone else. And I think that another important part of this is realizing if I walk away from this person, how damaged are they going to be by my leaving? And typically they're not going to be hurt at all. You know, bad people and user type people, they just look for someone else to use. If you're out of the equation, they're just going to find someone else to use and abuse.

[00:04:16] Jackie: Right. And so when you look at these situations when you're breaking up , or letting go of them in your life, is it always somebody who is intentionally toxic and abusive? Or are there just some people that it's not good for your mental health to be around them, even though they may mean well, they may not be assholes either, but you know, it's not good for you. So how do you balance that?

[00:04:42] Melody: So something to consider, which I think may sound a little harsh, but it's the reality: not everybody wants to grow. Not everyone cares to evolve. And when that has become the purpose of your life, that you want to grow and you want to heal and you want to be a better person, one of the downsides of that is realizing there are people that you love that do not have the same goal, and that's another part of this where you have to be really honest with yourself. It's not about hope, because hope, there's a slippery slope to hope. Hope can quickly go into a delusional state of mind, where you're just like, you're, you're so caught up in the potential of someone and who they could be, and you're completely ignoring who they truly are.

[00:05:32] Melody: And so you have to pay attention to what are their actions? Who are they truly? What is the evidence to their character? What do you see in them consistently? You have to pay attention to that and make your decisions based on that. Not what you feel they could be. Or who they should be. You have to pay attention to who they truly are and make decisions based on that information

[00:06:00] Jackie: Yeah. And you know, one of the things in the book you talk about all different types of relationships, you know, parents and kids and brothers and sisters, siblings and friendship and all of that. And you touch upon the division that is in the world right now, and I think sometimes breaking up or cutting somebody out of your life feels like you had this history, but their belief system is so opposite of your own, and here has to be a level of like, you know, coexisting. Absolutely. But when people are taking action and using their voice and standing up for or against things that are truly like who you are, yeah, do you see that a lot in your clients?

[00:06:50] Melody: I see it a lot in my clients.

[00:06:52] Jackie: And in the world?

[00:06:52] Melody: And in my friends and just in the world. Absolutely. It's devastating. It truly is a devastating moment when you realize that there's someone that you've known for a long time, someone that you truly, truly love, sees the world in a different way, and in that way, it's harmful to you or people that you love. It's a slap in the face in a lot of ways, and you wonder, how do I continue this relationship? Should I continue this relationship? Should I continue it with boundaries, or should I sever the ties altogether? And that is... That's the whole book. How do you decide what to do? And then what do you do with all the emotions that are connected with it? This is not a quick process. It takes a while because you do need to give yourself time to really think about how you feel about the person, how you feel about yourself in relationship with this other person and weigh it out. It's not a quick decision to make. It's not a quick process. And you have to allow a lot of time for your heart to heal.

[00:07:53] Jackie: Hmm.

[00:07:54] Melody: And it really is, it's a healing process because you have to decide at what level am I going to interact with this person. And sometimes you do sever the tie and you have to decide I'm going to love you from a distance.

[00:08:06] Jackie: Right.

[00:08:06] Melody: And making that decision to sever the tie, sometimes it's a big knock down, drag out fight, and sometimes it's not a conversation at all. It's just allowing something to fade away.

[00:08:18] Jackie: Hmm. Yeah. And so if someone's listening right now and they're like, oh, so we're supposed to, whenever we disagree with somebody, we're just supposed to cut them out of our lives? Like, that is not the book at all. So what are the steps before, that feels like a very severe, very, could be final move, what are some of the things we can do to protect ourselves in relationships before we get that far?

[00:08:45] Melody: Be honest, express what you want. It can start with just yourself. Whenever you're interacting with someone, what type of relationship are you idealizing with this other person? What is it that you want? And be mindful of what your expectations are. And then, as you're in a relationship with someone, see how you feel with that person. Do you feel empowered? Do you feel loved and accepted and appreciated? Or do you feel depleted? Do you feel used? Do you feel disrespected? Without explaining away the other person's behavior, what is just straight up what's going on between the two of you? You've got to be honest with yourself about what's going on. And I think a big way, or a great way to figure that out is, after you've spent time with this person, when you walk away, how do you feel? Just that snapshot right there. How do you feel after you've spent time with this person? That is a huge indicator on whether or not this is a relationship that serves you, or this is one that doesn't at all. It takes away from you when you need to negotiate what that looks like, you know, editing friendships, the talk of that is big right now editing your friendship because we all are growing at different levels in different directions at different paces, and some people aren't growing at all. And when you notice that somebody is not growing, that's not for you to feel bad about. If anything, it's for you to celebrate that you have evolved. There was a time in your life that whoever this person was, you guys were in lockstep. You know, you were in sync. You saw the world in the exact same way. And when you've educated yourself and you have grown and you realize that you see things differently than this other person, that's a win. That's a beautiful thing. And not necessarily that you, you've outgrown this other person, but that you've grown at all; that you've grown and you've evolved. I think that's a big sign of maturity that if you think a certain way and then you get new information and then you allow yourself to change your mind, that's an amazing place to be that I don't think gets enough credit. That simple thing: At this point who I am right here right now, this doesn't work for me anymore. Yes, it used to work for me, but I have evolved past who I used to be. That is a beautiful thing. That's an amazing state to be in, and I think it needs to be reframed in that way, that I've grown, and we see the world differently, and that's okay. We're all making decisions based on so many factors, but, you know, the main factor is I need to feel safe, and I need to feel loved, and I need to feel stable. And we're all making decisions, the same decisions, based on what we feel is the best way for us to feel love and safe and stable.

[00:11:41] Jackie: Right. It's funny because I think about all the boomers in our lives, and they just kind of like white-knuckled it. If somebody was mean or somebody was, you know, that uncle would say those things or like whatever happened at those family dinners, they'd white-knuckle it and just try to get through it and probably drink too much. What do you say to somebody? Cause as we're, you know, we're in October, we're going into the holidays, it's going to happen fast. And sometimes our need for separation from those people also impacts other people, our kids, our family, our friends, sometimes it's a friendship. What does that look like when you're trying to create that distance with this particular person, but there are other people who are impacted by it who don't want you to cause a rift by the way.

[00:12:31] Melody: Well, here's the thing though, who is the one that's causing the rift? I was speaking at a conference this past weekend, and I was talking to a woman who said that she didn't want to be the one to blow up her family. By talking about, it was sexual abuse between family members, and she didn't want to be the one to blow up the family. I said, honey, you aren't the one that blew up the family. The perpetrator is the one that blew up the family. And so that happens a lot, that taking on the responsibility of a situation that you did not create. And so that's a really important distinction to make. You calling out dysfunction is not the person, you're not the one that created it. You're calling it out so that it stops. You know, so many families continue generation after generation with so many abusive things that just keep going because no one says anything. Because they say, I don't want to blow up the family. I don't want to bring harm. I don't want to cause drama, but if you're not the perpetrator, how are you the one that's causing the drama? You're calling it out so it stops it, so that there aren't any more victims.

[00:13:36] Jackie: Right. Because, you know, sweeping it under the rug is much more comfortable for people who want to pretend things didn't happen, whatever those things may be.

[00:13:45] Melody: We want to pretend that we're perfect and there is no perfect family. There are no perfect people. So how can there be completely perfect families out there? Like, it's a joke. It is an absolute joke. And it's so disrespectful to have that as the reason why nothing gets called out. Cause we want to appear a certain way when we all know every single one of us knows that none of us are perfect.

[00:14:07] Jackie: Right.

[00:14:09] Melody: We're all just trying to make it happen. We're all just trying to make it work, but I think the best way to do that. And I'm not saying it's easy. It's extremely difficult to be that one to go, “Hey, over here, this isn't okay. What uncle so and so did? Not okay. What aunt whoever did? Not okay.” And it affected me. And it does scrape up a lot of scabs, but I feel that those things need to happen so that you can shift what your family looks like. That's the work here. The work is, how do you want your family to flow in the future? What do you want the descendants to feel like? And how do you want them to process information? How do you want them to communicate? How do you want them to love and interact with each other? When you are that person that makes the commitment to call things out and have conversations about things, it is a powerful position to be in. And yes, it's going to be difficult, but you have the power to shift the trajectory of your entire family.

[00:15:12] Jackie: Hmm. That's powerful.

[00:15:14] Melody: Exactly.

[00:15:16] Jackie: I think you and I have something in common. We enjoy, not enjoy, but we are empowered by uncomfortable and awkward conversations. I have discovered throughout my years that small talk is not for me. I love going deep. And one of the things that I actually need and I don't want to say enjoy, cause it's hard, but need in my life are friends and family who go, Jackie, that thing you just said hurt my feelings. Or that thing that you do, like, I know that this is the way you want the holidays, but I would really like A, B and C to also be included. Like, I want feedback. I crave feedback so that I can grow. So I guess my point is down the road, will there be people who are like, I got to cut you out of my life because you run the whole show when I truly want other people to run the show with me. Like, am I going to be that grandma who's like, where are my babies? You know?

[00:16:11] Melody: Mm hmm. I doubt that.

[00:16:13] Jackie: Yeah, well, and I also, my kids, they have learned and I believe I've taught them to speak up when something's not working like mom I came to you for it to listen and you gave me advice and that's not what I need right now. So like I do try to empower them and then I actually try to take radical responsibility for my life and for my actions. So I think I'm teaching them how to do that because I do want a strong solid relationship with them in the future. But I will say you and I growing up similar age if one were to go to therapy, which by the way, as children, we were never sent to therapy for…

[00:16:52] Melody: I didn't even know what it was, but damn, I needed it.

[00:16:54] Jackie: Yeah, that was for crazy people. YYou know, not literally, but like the attitude was that right. but if we were to go to therapy, there was no way a therapist would talk about their own personal experience. And in this book, you masterfully. Share your expertise, share what you see in the world, and also get really vulnerable with your own story. And so how did that happen? Because you, you even do that. We've talked about this on, I'm gonna link to the other episodes that you've been on here, but you do that so well. How do you have the courage to do so? And then how did you learn how to do so?

[00:17:31] Melody: I grew up in a family that had the mindset of, you don't air our dirty laundry. What happens behind these doors stays behind these doors. And there was a lot of addiction, and there was a lot of abuse happening. And that's how I was groomed to, you shut up and you keep it inside. And it felt like crap for decades until I realized that the shame and embarrassment I felt did not belong to me.

[00:18:01] Jackie: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:02] Melody: I had two different moments that helped me realize that it's okay to get help. Before I became a therapist, I was a TV producer, as you know, and it was the first day on set on a brand new TV show and some of the ladies were getting together to go to happy hour. And we had a boss that was just one of the coolest people I'd ever met.

[00:18:25] Melody: And I invited her to come to happy hour with us. And she said, “Honey, I really appreciate that invitation, but if I don't go to therapy on Wednesday nights, I don't make it to Thursday.”

[00:18:34] Jackie: Wow.

[00:18:34] Melody: My brain exploded! There's this woman who has her shit together, and she goes to therapy, and she's saying it out loud to me, a perfect stranger? What!?

[00:18:48] Jackie: Amazing.

[00:18:49] Melody: Amazing! And then the show I did immediately after that had a similar moment. It was me and a couple of other ladies. We go to lunch together. And, one of the producers said, she name dropped her therapist. She's like, yeah, my therapist, John Elliott, yada, yada, yada. And my brain stopped. I don't even know what she said after that. But I was like, she's out in public talking about therapy. What!? And then the other coworker goes, “Um, can I get that phone number from you?” And I thought, wait, she's, wait, what, what is happening in front of me? And then on the slide, I like scribbled down his name and number. And I thought like these women, I have so much respect for them. I love them and they're going to therapy. So maybe therapy isn't what I thought it was. Maybe therapy isn't what I was told it was. And seeing people that I respected feel confident enough to be vulnerable, open the door for me, that's the power of just sharing. Just sharing and so when writing the book, it's funny, so I wrote it and my aunt, my great aunt, she's my mother's oldest sibling, she has edited many many many people's books And so I asked her to edit mine and only after I got back the the edits did I go “Oh, shit. My great aunt knows I'm bisexual. Oh, shit. She knows this and this and that. Oh, shit. This is all out there now.” And I've had a couple of moments like once, especially like once it got to the publisher and once it was being printed and it was formatted and it's solid, I've had, I won't lie, over the last few weeks, I've had moments where I've woken up and gone, “Oh shit. Everybody's gonna know that. Oh shit. Fuck. Everybody's gonna know that.” And, fuck it. You know? Fuck it. This is my life and I am so grateful for where I am right now and I'm so grateful for all that I have survived and that's the way that I reframed it. I'm not going to be ashamed of anything that I've survived. That's brought me confidence. I like who I am and I had to go through all that stuff to get here. Fine. Fine.

[00:21:05] Jackie: Yeah. Is it freeing to know that you don't have to now keep hiding those parts of yourself? Like when, wherever you go, you can just show up as full Melody because it's out there in the world.

[00:21:16] Melody: You know, there is that there, there are those parts of it. And I realized like I started doing podcasts a few years ago and the way I talk and I've done some presenting and speaking engagements and just whenever I'm talking to somebody, my shit just flies out. 

[00:21:32] Jackie: How are you feeling about that? Do you have the urge ever to reach out to the podcast producer or a host and go, can you please edit that out?

[00:21:40] Melody: No. No. Because it's me. 

[00:21:44] Jackie: I think it's amazing to show up as yourself, to be able to speak openly. I try to be an authentic human being who's like, this is the shit. We go through it and we still move on. We still move forward. And so one of the things that I have seen in real life on the podcast, like as if those are two separate things, is this change or this maybe not even a change, this embrace of identity. As we are over 40, over 50 and beyond, that's also in your book. How do we find our identity? Can we start there?

[00:22:24] Melody: I think there are multiple ways to do it. One quick way to- actually ,let me back up a little bit. You asked me, what was it that made it easier for me to start to reveal who I am? As you were presenting that question, you made me put two things together that I hadn't in all of my years. My mother was a very abusive person. She was a narcissist of the worst kind, I've diagnosed her as antisocial personality disorder. And that does not mean, antisocial does not mean that you're really shy and you're a hermit. No, it means you give the middle finger to the rules of society that says that you're a kind and decent person and that you don't steal from people and you don't lie and you don't break laws. You know, most of us have decided that's how we're going to live. So we can be in community with other people. And as I was growing up, my mother never did that. My mother was disrespectful to how everybody else was living, but what she would do is her public persona was charismatic and kind and funny and smart and sweet, but behind closed doors, she was a terrorist. And I saw that, and it, the inauthenticity of that, and where people assume that my mother was this amazing person and I'm like, you don't know her at all! And I never wanted to be that way. And it was a painful thing to think about, but I never wanted people to look at me the way they looked at her.

[00:24:08] Jackie: People who really knew her or people who thought they knew her?

[00:24:12] Melody: People that thought they knew her. Well, my mother was not a good person and she wasn't a good person because she experienced a lot of trauma that she never got treated and nobody was doing that back then, especially not for black women. There was no, you go into therapy and let's talk this out and let's, you sweep everything under the rug. And that's with a lot of cultures, but the way I looked at her and how she got what she wanted out of life, out of people, I didn't have respect for. She wasn't a kind person. She wasn't a good person. But people saw her one way and I knew her as something else and that hypocrisy in that, I didn't like that. And so that was something early on what made me just know that I wanted to be a real person all the time, everywhere.

[00:25:07] Jackie: Mm.

[00:25:08] Melody: I want to be real. I want to be me and I don't want to have different personas depending on who I was with and which environments I was in. That was something that's always been a part of me that I want to be me regardless of who I'm around. And that has always been something really important to me. How do you discover who you are at your core? And authentically, I think it's an exploration that can take some time. But one way to figure that out is when do you feel frustrated?

[00:25:36] Jackie: Hmm.

[00:25:38] Melody: I'm a big proponent of frustration and looking at frustration as the fuel to make change and rebellion. You know, that is a word that I've realized I've been using a lot recently is be mindful of your rebellious nature. And if there's something that's happening around you and you're immediately pissed off about it and you don't feel it's right, that is a good thing. Lean into that. What doesn't feel right about that at your core? What doesn't feel right when you lean into those moments, you realize who you truly are on the inside. What doesn't feel right? What do you feel needs to change? Those things are parts of who you are. Here's something whenever, let's say there's so many things that happen in our patriarchal society where people feel that they have to do certain things. You have to get married. No, you don't have to get married, if the thought of getting married makes you go, oh, hello, boom, listen to that, pay attention to that, give respect and time and care to thinking those thoughts, having children. What is your immediate thought? Is it, “wow, this is going to be joyful” or is it, “oh, it sounds exhausting?”

[00:26:48] Jackie: Mm.

[00:26:49] Melody: Look at that. Take the time to lean into that feeling and those thoughts. Because when you do that and you really listen to who you are at your core, that's when you're going to become who you truly want to be. Now, the rebellion, as I'm calling it, the rebellion.

[00:27:09] Jackie: The Rebellion.

[00:27:10] Melody: I love the sound of that. Isn't that great?

[00:27:12] Jackie: It's fantastic.

[00:27:13] Melody: There are so many things that we need to unlearn. So many things that we need to unlearn and it is uncomfortable, but we have to do the work because there are people that are counting on us. I don't have children, but I've got nieces, I've got nephews, that I rebel for them and that I hope that how I'm living my life inspires them. They say that it does and God, I hope so. You know, and how other family members that I looked up to, doing things differently than the way other people have done them. I appreciate it. I grew up in a family with tons of women, but never once did I ever get that pressure. Like you've got to get married. You have to get married. When are you getting married? You've got to have children. When are you having children? Why don't you have children? I'm so grateful I didn't grow up with people doing that, that pressure and so I found them in that space of where I just rebel all over the place all the time. Like with my clients, there's a rebellion in my interactions with my clients to where I will disclose. I'm not that therapist that sits there quietly and just goes, how do you feel about that? I don't do that shit .And I have so many clients that come to me because they've heard of how I work and that's exactly what they want. I'll do some disclosure if it's appropriate if it's something that will help the client realize they can make that change too. Because hey, I've been there. I had to deal with this stuff too. And I think that rebellion is what is needed in every single individual in our society right now, because there's so many horrible things that are happening and we feel like we can't get off the hamster wheel because it's going to be so disruptive to the people that are around us. We need to be disrupted. We need to fight back. We need to speak up. And I feel that yes, it can be a scary prospect, but I think just like anything, the more you do it, the more you practice it, the more you do anything, the easier it gets, and the more fun it gets, and the more confidence that comes when we rebel

[00:29:07] Jackie: Yeah. I love rebellion, like I love being a rebel. One of the things that really just stood out to me is that sometimes we're in that people pleaser mode like if I'm a rebel, I'm going to upset this person or these people. But that shift that you just helped me make is that there are these people over here, there's the next generation or there's our generation or whoever it is who actually will benefit from us showing up authentically. Just showing up and doing what we need to do for our own lives is giving other people permission if they feel they need it, to live their own lives and to really embrace their own identity. And so who are you going to choose? Being someone you're not, to please people who, by the way, are probably never going to be pleased. Or being exactly who you are and helping these other people show up exactly as they are. Because imagine a world where we are all showing up authentically and interacting. We don't have to believe the same things. We don't have to live the same way, but we can actually appreciate and respect each other in a way. Because a lot of this divide, I think, is just fear. It's all fear. Some people don't change things. Things worked the way they did. And it's like, no, they didn't.

[00:30:27] Melody: Mm hmm. They worked for a small percentage of the population. That's what the things worked for a very small group of people and those people that are in power Want to keep us all in this space so that they don't have to share what's happening up here

[00:30:45] Jackie: But you know, it's interesting. And I don't want to go off on a tangent. But you know, I have three sons, two of them are white. And for all intents and purposes, we could look at how the patriarchy benefits them, but it actually doesn't because they don't get to be authentic human beings who have a deep connection and who can be compassionate and empathetic and vulnerable. Exactly. It doesn't allow them to be vulnerable. So I am not saying like, “Oh, let's boohoo all the white men of the world.” Right? But I am saying that they don't actually benefit from it because then they have to continue this false toxic masculinity that they have been told is what makes them valuable. And so I call bullshit that at this point in our society, that even that benefits them because they don't get to be who they really are. And that's sad to me.

[00:31:42] Melody: It's so sad, and I've done so much reading about this very thing because I was in that headspace of just complete misinterest. Like, what the hell is wrong with men? And why is the world crazy? It's because of men, and what the hell? And I'm like, I can't stay in this headspace. This isn't going to help anybody. So I started digging and I started reading and I read a book from Bell Hooks called The Will to Change. And it is a brilliant, brilliant book. And it's written about men by a feminist. And it talks about how, the lies that women are told, but it talks about the lies that men are told and the rules, the rigid rules that they are raised within and how it doesn't serve them and they don't even realize it doesn't serve them. And the only way that they're going to get out of it is through the help of women. It's not just men, go figure it out. No. It's like we're all in this and we're all going to benefit from the change and we're all, where it all stands now, we're all being punished for it. We're all suffering the consequences of the current system. Women can see it, but men can't really see it. And so I think reading that book helped me see what men are up against and it helped me realize what I can do. What's my part? And so I'll preach it to my male clients all the time. And then I also talk to the women about it because they, in a lot of them, they have male partners or they're raising, you know, sons, we all need to do things differently and that's the rebellion. And we're going to piss people off and it's going to drive people crazy. And I just lean on what one of my clients that had a 15 year old client. That I was starting with and it was near the holidays and I said, so what are you doing for the holidays? Does your family have any traditions? And he says “Traditions are the rules made by dead people.”

[00:33:28] Jackie: Yes.

[00:33:30] Melody: I'm like, you are brilliant. So many of us are living life with the rules created by dead people that don't even look like us that never did, and we are trying to force ourselves into living in a certain way and it's never going to serve us and you need to rebel! If it doesn't feel right you need to rebel!

[00:33:51] Jackie: I love it.

[00:33:52] Melody: Do shit differently.

[00:33:53] Jackie: Yes. I am joining the rebellion. Please, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, lead us, okay? Hahahaha! Because I will go to the Church of Melody. I'll do all the things. 

[00:34:05] Jackie: real 

[00:34:05] Jackie: Grab Mourning the Living, wherever you buy books or visit grownass woman.guide/episode188 for a link to purchase. But hold up. If you think melody is done changing our lives, think again. 

[00:34:19] Jackie: Some people would write a book, which is a big effing deal and be like, I wrote my very first book, but no, no, no, not Melody Murray. She's like, I gotta have two books coming out at the same time. What is that all about?

[00:34:36] Melody: So I started writing the first one, Mourning the Living, probably three and a half years ago. And it's been an up and down hill battle, writing, not writing, inspired, not inspired, overwhelmed by life, and then flatlining just exhausted and just not in the headspace. And so whenever I wasn't in the headspace this past spring, I just stopped writing altogether. And then I got a brand new client who was an executive at Microsoft. And she says to me, you know, type A personality. She's like, okay. So what are you going to do with me? What road are we going down? What can I expect? And I was like, well, shit, I told you who I was in the consultation. What are you asking of me? And basically she's like, I want a plan. I need to know what my healing plan is going to be. And I was like, all right, girlfriend, here we go. And I thought about it and I told it to her verbally, and then I thought about, I'm like, wait a minute, I looked through all of my clients and like, what did I do with this person? What did I do with him? What did I do with her? And I realized that I pretty much do a lot of the same thing with everybody, but just in different order, multiple steps in different order. And so that's what the second book is about. It's called My Bounce Back Plan. It's when you get devastated in some way, you don't have to start from ground zero to heal from this devastation because loss is loss. There are different types of loss, but loss is loss, and when you're when your world changes in some way that you weren't expecting or even that you were expecting, there needs there's some refractory. time there, and there needs to be a plan put in place so that you can heal yourself and still get life done. And so that's where it came from. It's a workbook. So it's not the length of a traditional nonfiction book, and it's not as dense as a nonfiction book. And it's multiple steps on what you can do to help yourself feel better. And I call it a living book in that this will be something that you continue to add to and edit so that as the next thing happens, you just grab it, you grab it, and that's what you work through. These are the people that helped me. These are the coping mechanisms that worked. These are the exercises that I did that helped me feel better. So now I'm going to adjust it if need to, or just use the exact same formula because now I'm divorced or I've lost my job or my kid went off to college. Or my mother is in hospice care. It's meant to be this go-to thing so that you're constantly working on yourself, feeling better, but the first step is always the same: pause. Just pause, just give yourself a moment to, to own what has changed in your world, so that you're not on a treadmill doing the same old crap that you're always doing. You need to feel and acknowledge what has changed, what has happened to you so that you can figure out which direction do you go in.

[00:37:40] Jackie: I love that. And so I'm going to pitch it right here. My Bounce Back Plan comes out in November. I want you to come and co-facilitate a workshop with me for the grown-ass women out there, they get the workbook. We give them time to get the workbook. You come in, we do 90 minutes, we get them started. You in?

[00:37:59] Melody: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:00] Jackie: Excellent. 

[00:38:02] Jackie: The links to all things Melody can be found in the show notes at grownasswoman.guide/episode188. If you liked this episode, you will love the other two episodes I've done with Melody, episode 139 and episode 145. You can find them both at grownasswoman.guide/episode139 and grownasswoman.guide/episode145. Thank you so much for listening. For more information and a transcript of this episode, visit grownasswoman.guide/episode188. And let's connect on social at grown-ass woman.guide. Until next time you are a grown-ass woman. Act accordingly. The Grown-Ass Woman's Guide is produced by Grown-Ass Creative, a media and marketing agency powered by grown-ass women over 40.